Ren'Py The Null Hypothesis [v0.4a] [Ron Chon]

[RandomNumber]

So...fraud. They wanted fraud. Like, that's worse. If that's what they truly wanted (which, neither of us can say for sure if that's the case because, if that's what they wanted, they wouldn't have needed to even bother hiring Chebulski. They could have just made someone up. Or just tap Jim Lee.

Well first of all, Jim Lee is a Korean who's lived in America since elementary school and probably doesn't know any mangaka from Japan either.

Second, the reason I can say with confidence that they wanted fraud is because they got what they wanted, there is a reason that Cebulski wasn't fired but rather ended up promoted to Editor in Chief. And if you think you need to be GOOD at writing or editing or hiring people to be an EiC in mainstream comics, all I need to do is point at Joe Quesada and Dan Didio in an angry, accusatory manner.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

So...fraud. They wanted fraud.

I don't want to be guilty of slander or libel but it very strongly seemed that way.

all the same we're all worst off because of it.

they'd probably do a better job

My response to both these points is no, not really? I'll admit I only read the Spiderman Mangaverse and it really was no different compared to the stuff that was being pushed out by the Japanese AT THE TIME.

there's "Japanese people eat sushi all day long and drink tea."

This is actually a trope you'll find in plenty of manga and anime made in Japan. It's a caricature to mock Otaku or people up their own ass about being Japanese. I mean the Japanese as a majority are pretty nationalistic so it should tell you something that even they see some as taking it too far.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

And if you think you need to be GOOD at writing or editing or hiring people to be an EiC in mainstream comics,

You don't even need to be a good artist. I mean Ultimate Fantastic 4 had a dude trace porn and iirc he's still getting work.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Well first of all, Jim Lee is a Korean who's lived in America since elementary school and probably doesn't know any mangaka from Japan either.

I'm a Taiwanese that grew up in America. If they had said "We're doing Mangaverse with Jim Lee at the helm!" Americans wouldn't have known the difference. Again, they used Chinese type font for a mangaverse comic. People say that "Avatar: The Last Airbender" is anime. Trust the Japanese speaking Asian on this one. They wouldn't have known a difference.

Second, the reason I can say with confidence that they wanted fraud is because they got what they wanted...

I'm gonna agree to disagree on this one. Just because I'm not one to say what is or what isn't without hard evidence. As I told someone else recently absence of something doesn't mean the opposite is true. And, until I see evidence to say "Yes, this was our intent." I'm not going to assume anything. You can. I just won't.

 

[RandomNumber]

To be fair, not saying it's a good thing, but every culture does this to every culture. Look at Americans in literally any other country's media and you'll see either fat dudes or people obsessed with guns.

As a fan of Tokusatsu, I kind of enjoy the fact that whenever a character in a Sentai is "from America", they're immediately given a cowboy gimmick.

I'm a Taiwanese that grew up in America. If they had said "We're doing Mangaverse with Jim Lee at the helm!" Americans wouldn't have known the difference. Again, they used Chinese type font for a mangaverse comic. People say that "Avatar: The Last Airbender" is anime. Trust the Japanese speaking Asian on this one. They wouldn't have known a difference.

Sure, but you're the one who wanted authenticity.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Look at Americans in literally any other country's media and you'll see either fat dudes or people obsessed with guns.

Gonna disagree with you on that one. In my experience, it highly depends on the country.
I'm reminded of Pani Poni Dash where they have an image of "Bob Jackie" (their imagining of an American) Which is just a guy with blonde hair speaking faux English.
If you look at Hong Kong action movies from the 80's and 90's, they're just foreigners that don't know what's going on. Not fat nor obsessed with guns.
In China, they have "white monkey" (I didn't come up with the name. To my knowledge, other white people came up with the term.) jobs where white people are hired for looking stereotypically American/white. None of them are fat.

Honestly, at the very least, here in Taiwan, when people think "American" they think tall, blonde and speak English. Oh, often loud and/or inconsiderate. But not fat or obsessed with guns.


Basically, the image of the average American hasn't been that tarnished internationally (yet).

 

[sleepingkirby]

Sure, but you're the one who wanted authenticity.

Yes, but what I meant was, if they wanted to fake things, they could have just tapped Jim Lee. Because no one would have known the difference. Fraud is fraud. You don't get extra points for be slightly less fraud.

 

[RandomNumber]

Yes, but what I meant was, if they wanted to fake things, they could have just tapped Jim Lee. Because no one would have known the difference. Fraud is fraud. You don't get extra points for be slightly less fraud.

Well most importantly, Jim's artstyle doesn't look like manga and is heavily associated with and frequently copied in western comics already as a "house style". It wouldn't have been suitable for a line of anime knockoffs.

 

[sleepingkirby]

My response to both these points is no, not really? I'll admit I only read the Spiderman Mangaverse and it really was no different compared to the stuff that was being pushed out by the Japanese AT THE TIME.

You sure? 2000-2002 was the time of FLCL, Love Hina, Ah! My Goddess was getting a TV series (checks what I was reading at the time), Fruit Baskets was still going on, Azumanga Daioh, Skip Beat! (I need to finish that series), Get Backers, Flame of Recca (Speaking of ninjas), Angel Heart (A spin off of City Hunter), Gundam Seed (which, they're about to release a movie for). Full Metal Alchemist. Like there was some real quality stuff during that period.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Well most importantly, Jim's artstyle doesn't look like manga and is heavily associated with and frequently copied in western comics already as a "house style". It wouldn't have been suitable for a line of anime knockoffs.

Are comic artists really locked in to one style that much? I mean, granted, I've only personally know 1 published and fairly well known comic artist and he was able to change styles pretty well. But I'd think someone of Jim Lee's caliber could have picked up a different style for a project. Like, I know that when I did art, I went between styles.

 

[RandomNumber]

Are comic artists really locked in to one style that much? I mean, granted, I've only personally know 1 published and fairly well known comic artist and he was about to change styles pretty well. But I'd think someone of Jim Lee's caliber could have picked up a different style for a project. Like, I know that when I did art, I went between styles.

Not only has Jim been very rigid and consistent his entire career, his art was so popular in the 90s that it basically defines that era of western comics and had many, many imitators.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

Not only has Jim been very rigid and consistent his entire career, his art was so popular in the 90s that it basically defines that era of western comics and had many, many imitators.

He's responsible for the most consistent designs. Like think of a super hero. The image that came to mind was probably influenced by him.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Not only has Jim been very rigid and consistent his entire career, his art was so popular in the 90s that it basically defines that era of western comics and had many, many imitators.

Rigid and consistent is different from locked in. Again, use to do art. Worked in animation. Saying an artist is locked into one style and one style only, in the art world, is close to calling someone a hack. So I'm going to ask again. Are you absolutely sure he CANNOT do another style than his style?

 

[RandomNumber]

Animation is very different from comics. Most western artists have one style and never change. If you don't believe me, google is your friend.

 

[ShinyBoots1993]

As a fan of Tokusatsu, I kind of enjoy the fact that whenever a character in a Sentai is "from America", they're immediately given a cowboy gimmick.

Oh yeah I wasn't saying I disliked the cowboy stuff.

Gonna disagree with you on that one. In my experience, it highly depends on the country.

I was overgeneralizing which in conversations like these I admit isn't a good idea. There are other tropes and stuff but my point that countries often do rely on

Oh, often loud and/or inconsiderate.

This is actually more common than the two I cited. It's still a stereotype.

You sure?

Most certainly.

Of your examples, Love Hina was 100% derivative of harem and domestic abuse being referred to as slapstick humor.

Fruits Basket, while of higher quality, is the model of shoujo manga and anime with a love triangle.

I jokingly refer to Gundam Seed as the Shoujo Gundam. It has a pop idol advocating for peace while flying a giant robot and two pretty boys who are into her but the fandom ships with each other.

Full Metal Alchemist can be serious and I think it's a good story but it still relies on tropes such as chibi, typical anime fan service, general character archetypes, and deadpan humor with the emoticons of sweatdrops, bulging forehead veins, an overcast, etc.

Ah! My Goddess is probably the blandest of your picks. It was just a generic love story with a special gimmick. It has major Tenchi Muyo vibes.

I haven't watched/read the others so I can't comment.

Are any of these things bad? No, but they're filled with tropes and stereotypes that are synonymous with the genres they belong to.

 

[sleepingkirby]

This is actually more common than the two I cited. It's still a stereotype.

I hate to say it, but it's a pretty true stereotype. Like, I live in a fairly busy part of Taipei. And even among the busy crowds commuting to and from places on the MRT, you can spot/hear an American really easily. German? Spanish? French? Not so much. Like, I'll walk by one and only then go "Huh, don't hear French very often around here." An American, you immediately know.

Of your examples, Love Hina was 100% derivative of harem and domestic abuse being referred to as slapstick humor.

Fruits Basket, while of higher quality, is the model of shoujo manga and anime with a love triangle.

I jokingly refer to Gundam Seed as the Shoujo Gundam. It has a pop idol advocating for peace while flying a giant robot and two pretty boys who are into her but the fandom ships with each other.

Full Metal Alchemist can be serious and I think it's a good story but it still relies on tropes such as chibi, typical anime fan service, general character archetypes, and deadpan humor with the emoticons of sweatdrops, bulging forehead veins, an overcast, etc.

Ah! My Goddess is probably the blandest of your picks. It was just a generic love story with a special gimmick. It has major Tenchi Muyo vibes.

I haven't watched/read the others so I can't comment.

Are any of these things bad? No, but they're filled with tropes and stereotypes that are synonymous with the genres they belong to.

Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you mean the quality was just as bad, not the amount of tropes. My bad.

Yeah, that is true. But I feel like they aren't relying on the tropes to define the work, but rather, the work lends itself to the tropes. Like, a romance story will commonly have a "Will she/won't she" trope because that is common in romance in general. Which, admittedly, a lot of works in the US at that time was trying to do the latter.

I do have to say that Love Hina did codify how harem genre work. I remember a lot of mangas that came out after that were very Love Hina-esque, not to mention a sudden influx of harem-type mangas and animes.

I jokingly refer to Gundam Seed as the Shoujo Gundam. It has a pop idol advocating for peace while flying a giant robot and two pretty boys who are into her but the fandom ships with each other.

I actually haven't watched that series yet. And yet, this isn't the first time I've heard Gundam Seed described that way. I was planning to watch it before the movie came out, now I wonder if I should...

Oh, also, I wanted to touch on this

Heck to associate with you, no country portrays China in an flattering way. RIP Akira Toriyama but his mistreatment of Krillan and Tien are pretty good examples.

My family and extended family have all read Dragon Ball to some degree, if not finished the original run. None of us really feels that there's really mistreatment towards Krillan and Tien and especially not because of them being Chinese. For us, they're pretty much all Chinese and kinda not at the same time (because Japanese manga). Since it was based on "Journey to the West", all the characters that have an analog in the original story (including Bulma as she's the monk that finds and frees Wukong.), are technically all Chinese (but not really).

 

[Dazzier31]

That's... a thing? Like dude... what even?

Yup

Second, the reason I can say with confidence that they wanted fraud is because they got what they wanted, there is a reason that Cebulski wasn't fired but rather ended up promoted to Editor in Chief.

I personally don't think Marvel comitting fraud was the intention, rather a consequence (positive or negative for them is not for me to say).

Akira Yoshida came to be not as a mandate from Marvel to have a bunch of diversity hires so more people from all over the world would care about comics. Akira Yoshida came to be because Cebulski wanted some extra money, let me elaborate:

At this point in time, Cebulski was already an editor with a given salary and barely nowhere to let his "creative juices" flow because Marvel had an strict policy that nobody in an editor position could double dip into writing work, this after years of editors being able to do whatever the hell they wanted and it being very frowned upon. Then Cebulski wanted some extra cash and had a great idea: let's create a guy from another country that could work for Marvel via outsourcing, that way Marvel won't ask many questions, he can just refuse to show up in conventions and he gets some extra cash.

As a fan of Tokusatsu, I kind of enjoy the fact that whenever a character in a Sentai is "from America", they're immediately given a cowboy gimmick.

Always will love the burger morpher.

 

[sleepingkirby]

Animation is very different from comics. Most western artists have one style and never change. If you don't believe me, google is your friend.

Again, personally knew a published comic artist (In DC comics, in case you were wondering). Also, the medium is different, but there's a lot of overlap. Matt Groening started out with comics. A lot of artists that worked as storyboarders have done comics as they're very similar in skill set. I've seen some (I didn't know them personally) that's done comics. I've also seen these artists have one style they do professionally and another style they do for fun. Like, I've been there, I've seen it.

 

[RandomNumber]

Again, personally knew a published comic artist (In DC comics, in case you were wondering). Also, the medium is different, but there's a lot of overlap. Matt Groening started out with comics. A lot of artists that worked as storyboarders have done comics as they're very similar in skill set. I've seen some (I didn't know them personally) that's done comics. I've also seen these artists have one style they do professionally and another style they do for fun. Like, I've been there, I've seen it.

I said "most" for a reason.

Animation is a huge industry in which the vast majority of artists will be doing storyboards or cels and very few will ever get to be in charge of their own show, so the job heavily revolves around being able to replicate the style of the showrunner or whoever did the character designs.

In comics, on the other hand, personal change and growth as an artist is entirely based on self-motivation. There's very little outside influence to draw in a dictated style, people often choose to follow the leader in the sense that they may go "Well that guy's book is a best seller right now, if my work looked more like his, I'd sell more copies, get more job offers, make more money" which is what happened when guys like Marc Silvestri, Fabian Nicieza, and Adam Kubert all started drawing like Jim. Not to mention the infamous Rob Liefeld's style is basically trying to copy Lee's angularity and heavy use of hatching, the reason he stands out as unique is just because he's so bad at anatomy it results in its own thing. But Jim himself never had to copy anyone else, he was the leader being followed. So he's never attempted any other style. The Jim Lee style seen on mid-90's X-Men when he created the famous suits you see in the Fox cartoon is the exact same Jim Lee seen on Batman: Hush a decade later, is the same Jim Lee who designed every character for the Nu52 reboot and the game DCU Online, is the same Jim Lee who drew costume designs for Mortal Kombat's Scorpion and Sub-Zero as guest characters in the Injustice games.

Most western artists who don't work in an industry where they're expected to be chameleons who can copy anyone's work such as in animation or graphic design, are downright encouraged by our "everyone is a unique and beautiful snowflake and you should emphasize what makes you an individual in order to stand out from the crowd and prove your worth" culture to hone in on having a style of their own and defend it from detractors even when the criticisms are valid (again I point at Liefeld who still can't fuckin' draw feet).

In addition, the number one thing employers in comics look for is speed. Which is how infamous tracers like Greg Land (whose blatantly reuses a small pool of stock photos of Triple H and porn stars over and over again) and Mikel Janin (whose characters are easily identified as Daz stock models) continue to get work despite the core fanbase lambasting them for over a decade. Such an environment doesn't really encourage the working penciller to try to branch out and experiment with his process too often. The ones who are really passionate like your friend will find the time, find a way...but most don't change once they perfect their preferred method.

 

[sleepingkirby]

View attachment 3568067

Yup

Wow... that art is awful...

Akira Yoshida came to be not as a mandate from Marvel to have a bunch of diversity hires so more people from all over the world would care about comics.

Here's what I was referring to that seems to contradict this statement (

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):

Cebulski first became known in the comic book world in 2002, when Marvel hired him as an associate editor to work with manga, a type of Japanese comic. Then editor in chief at the time, Joe Quesada, said

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that one reason they chose Cebulski was “because he speaks fluent Japanese and will be bringing some of the greatest artists in Japan to work with us.”

Like, maybe it wasn't a mandate and I certainly wasn't intending to say he was given a mandate. But he was hired to bring in Japanese artists. I kept writing "writers" and I read that wrong. My apologies.